41 KiB
==00:01:15,000==Cade Diehm: What is the Hologram? The premise is simple.==00:01:18,660== ==00:01:19,080==Three people, the Triangle, meet on a regular basis to listen and==00:01:23,820== ==00:01:23,820==support the physical, mental, and social health of a fourth==00:01:27,510== ==00:01:27,510==person, the Hologram. Years in development, the Hologram had==00:01:33,510== ==00:01:33,510==already begun to move and grow before the events of 2020. But==00:01:39,510== ==00:01:39,510==its timing could not have been more critical. The Hologram's==00:01:45,810== ==00:01:45,840==online work began almost exactly after the moment when the day==00:01:51,150== ==00:01:51,150==before became life before. And while we sat minds racing in our==00:01:56,970== ==00:01:56,970==homes and thinking and fearing the unthinkable, the Hologram==00:02:00,900== ==00:02:00,900==was already in motion. Since then, the Hologram has run==00:02:05,820== ==00:02:05,820==countless sessions and more importantly, facilitated three==00:02:09,390== ==00:02:09,390==courses aimed at teaching its fundamentals to interested==00:02:12,180== ==00:02:12,180==people. Each course has enjoyed surging interest, and these==00:02:16,920== ==00:02:16,920==initial participants invite a further three to participate==00:02:20,940== ==00:02:20,940==less formally, further widening the community. To the observer,==00:02:27,150== ==00:02:27,180==the Hologram can seem awkward, or obtuse, as its practices and==00:02:31,830== ==00:02:31,830==community brushes up against flattened surveillance-riddled==00:02:35,130== ==00:02:35,490==digital spaces served up by underpowered computing devices.==00:02:39,540== ==00:02:40,560==But in its online form, the Hologram is a vivid testimony of==00:02:45,330== ==00:02:45,330==the para-real because it is a real, expanding example of==00:02:49,530== ==00:02:49,530==resilience of communities when they are placed before the==00:02:53,160== ==00:02:53,160==platform. Its practices connect in spite of the tools, and its==00:02:58,710== ==00:02:58,710==practitioners use their innate understanding of the gaps in==00:03:01,650== ==00:03:01,650==social care, to evaluate, migrate and seize upon these==00:03:05,820== ==00:03:05,820==platforms, bending them towards a decentralized network of==00:03:10,290== ==00:03:10,290==global, feminist social support. Cassie Thornton, Shawn Chua and==00:03:16,860== ==00:03:16,860==Lauren Klein are three members of the Hologram.==00:03:19,560== ==00:03:26,640==Maybe Cassie, rather than just simply explain the Hologram,==00:03:31,290== ==00:03:31,740==maybe we could show it.==00:03:32,820==
==00:03:33,600==Cassie Thornton: Oh, good. So we always start any sort of==00:03:36,930== ==00:03:36,930==Hologram session with something called the stuck dance, a really==00:03:40,200== ==00:03:40,200==simple sort of social technology that we borrowed from social==00:03:43,350== ==00:03:43,350==presencing theatre, where we can kind of speak with more than==00:03:46,650== ==00:03:46,650==words, and instead of explaining it more than that, I think we're==00:03:50,340== ==00:03:50,340==just going to do it. We'll all take a turn doing it and have==00:03:53,310== ==00:03:53,310==Cade go last==00:03:54,570== ==00:03:56,000==We saw a lot, we saw a lot of work going into a series of==00:04:31,580==
==00:03:56,000==Lauren Klein: Kind of subtle, but present, like change in==00:04:45,770==
==00:03:56,030==Shawn Chua: I can go through first.==00:03:56,900== ==00:04:31,610==states of being that range from really focused and concentrated==00:04:36,860== ==00:04:36,860==to really relaxed==00:04:38,240== ==00:04:45,770==placement of the body in particular the head, moving kind==00:04:49,820== ==00:04:49,820==of back here into something forward.==00:04:52,130==
==00:04:53,840==Cade Diehm: We saw something that was quite deliberate.==00:04:56,990==
==00:05:00,000==Cassie Thornton: We saw a very preconceived statue or sculpture==00:05:36,780==
==00:05:00,200==Shawn Chua: Thank you==00:05:00,980== ==00:05:38,100==take form and we saw us stare into the palm of our hand, and==00:05:45,000== ==00:05:45,030==almost appear to be looking through it==00:05:47,640==
==00:05:49,950==Shawn Chua: That's interesting we saw a reflection coming back==00:05:55,350== ==00:05:55,350==through the curve of your hand, actually.==00:05:57,990==
==00:05:59,790==Cade Diehm: We saw a rigidity, but from a position of strength.==00:06:05,610==
==00:06:05,610==Lauren Klein: I appreciate that. Thank you.==00:06:11,280==
==00:06:28,830==Cade Diehm: We saw a center balance. You can see a lot of==00:06:35,670== ==00:06:35,670==focus on your feet.==00:06:36,720==
==00:06:39,480==Lauren Klein: We noticed the, an opening of the, your hips, with==00:06:45,060== ==00:06:45,060==the foot that turned out. Just that sense of openness.==00:06:48,390==
==00:06:49,530==Shawn Chua: We saw a solidness through the ways in which you==00:06:53,190== ==00:06:53,190==were grounded. And we saw you looking inwards.==00:06:59,220==
==00:07:03,240==Cassie Thornton: So Cade's going to go last because Cade's going==00:07:05,310== ==00:07:05,310==to be the Hologram.==00:07:06,360==
==00:07:30,420==Lauren Klein: We felt, or saw something that felt like==00:07:35,310== ==00:07:35,370==enjoyment in putting your body into the position.==00:07:39,150==
==00:07:40,140==Shawn Chua: We noticed a softness that was cocooning your==00:07:44,520== ==00:07:44,520==face.==00:07:45,240==
==00:07:50,010==Cassie Thornton: We, we recognize the pose as being==00:07:54,420== ==00:07:54,420==like, like a kind of tired warrior, but like maybe because==00:08:00,480== ==00:08:00,480==of a kind of glytchyness on the internet, it was like, it was==00:08:05,040== ==00:08:05,040==like an over-caffeinated and tired warrior, and very==00:08:08,160== ==00:08:08,160==graceful, also. Like the movement into and out of the==00:08:11,220== ==00:08:11,220==shape is very graceful.==00:08:12,690==
==00:08:12,690==Lauren Klein: Yeah.==00:08:12,750==
==00:08:18,240==Cade Diehm: Thank you.==00:08:18,720==
==00:08:18,750==Cassie Thornton: So...==00:08:19,110==
==00:08:19,110==Cade Diehm: It is, it's always fun doing that. Yeah.==00:08:21,630==
==00:08:23,790==Cassie Thornton: Hmmmm, yeah, it's very fun with, it's very==00:08:25,860== ==00:08:25,860==fun with your current character, to do it.==00:08:28,620==
==00:08:29,040==Cade Diehm: This must be the first time that's, the the three==00:08:31,290== ==00:08:31,290==of your experien- like, done that. It's the first time I've==00:08:33,330== ==00:08:33,330==done that in, in this...==00:08:35,430==
==00:08:35,430==Lauren Klein: It's awesome.==00:08:36,150==
==00:08:36,510==Cade Diehm: ...space, in this body. Ha, ha, ha==00:08:40,440==
==00:08:40,500==Lauren Klein: I would comment on my own comment, which is like, I==00:08:44,100== ==00:08:44,100==think my comment of seeing enjoyment was projecting my==00:08:48,150== ==00:08:48,150==enjoyment of watching. Ha, ha, ha, ha.==00:08:49,500==
==00:08:51,810==Cade Diehm: Yeah. What comes next?==00:08:54,270==
==00:08:55,590==Cassie Thornton: Since we're kind of acting as your Triangle,==00:08:58,230== ==00:08:58,260==we asked you questions. And so in the Hologram, we ask==00:09:02,100== ==00:09:02,100==questions from three different positions, either questions==00:09:05,640== ==00:09:05,640==about the physical self, the social self, the mental and==00:09:09,690== ==00:09:09,690==emotional self. And so we'll do one round of questions for you==00:09:13,290== ==00:09:13,290==based on the shape you made in the stuck dance, but also based==00:09:16,770== ==00:09:16,770==on whatever you would like to talk about today. So, Cade I'm==00:09:21,150== ==00:09:21,150==just wondering if you could mark the task, which means maybe tell==00:09:24,720== ==00:09:24,720==us what you'd like to talk about and what kind of feeling you==00:09:37,530==
==00:09:33,750==Cade Diehm: I think I'd like to talk about the sense of==00:09:36,918== ==00:09:36,991==tiredness and being online for too long. Firstly, in the==00:09:41,118== ==00:09:37,530==would like to produce by the end of this interview.==00:09:44,970== ==00:09:41,191==context of marking the task, and also the interview itself.==00:09:45,539==
==00:09:45,000==Cassie Thornton: So now the three of us are going to ask you==00:09:49,230== ==00:09:49,230==just one round of questions. I think we've already decided==00:09:53,580== ==00:09:53,580==which roles we're going to take on.==00:09:55,950==
==00:09:56,560==Lauren Klein: I'll be asking about physical and physicality.==00:10:00,640==
==00:10:01,710==Shawn Chua: And I'll be asking about mental, emotional space.==00:10:06,540==
==00:10:08,070==Cassie Thornton: And I'll ask you questions about your==00:10:10,110== ==00:10:10,110==relationship to the social.==00:10:11,580==
==00:10:13,770==Lauren Klein: So, we were curious about observing us right==00:10:20,190== ==00:10:20,190==now, I'm observing the screen. I'm watching you, Cade, and what==00:10:26,040== ==00:10:26,040==are we, who are we when we're looking at ourselves, but==00:10:29,520== ==00:10:29,520==particularly for you in this moment, I'm curious if you can==00:10:34,500== ==00:10:34,530==kind of vision, this space between your physical body and==00:10:41,490== ==00:10:41,490==this image of you on the screen. And if there's any, like shape==00:10:47,850== ==00:10:48,120==that it takes, like, is there an actual shape, or color or a==00:10:52,740== ==00:10:52,740==sensation, or a texture or any, anything that might come up in==00:10:56,730== ==00:10:56,730==your brain, in your mind is an image of that.==00:10:59,580==
==00:10:59,930==Cade Diehm: There is I think. Maybe the pandemic has made me==00:11:04,610== ==00:11:04,610==struggle a little bit with physicality, from a place of==00:11:08,060== ==00:11:08,960==being quite isolated, being at high risk. It has meant that==00:11:12,500== ==00:11:12,500==I've tried to express myself through a replacement of the==00:11:18,560== ==00:11:18,560==physicality, so on, where from my perspective, which you can't==00:11:23,000== ==00:11:23,000==see right now, if I open my eyes again, what I can see actually==00:11:26,270== ==00:11:26,270==is like, a floating window inside a completely different==00:11:31,490== ==00:11:31,490==space. It feels very playful, but at the same time, it feels==00:11:36,320== ==00:11:36,590==like there's a big gulf between that and me as sitting here==00:11:41,810== ==00:11:41,810==physically.==00:11:42,470==
==00:11:46,640==Shawn Chua: I'm curious about you know, earlier, when we were==00:11:49,940== ==00:11:49,940==talking about how we were feeling fatigued from being==00:11:53,270== ==00:11:53,300==online for so long, and and to think about that, that shape==00:11:58,340== ==00:11:58,340==that you were forming, as well, I'm wondering what that embrace==00:12:04,190== ==00:12:04,220==might look like, within this flattened space for you.==00:12:08,660==
==00:12:11,360==Cade Diehm: Interaction has been a lifesaver, as I think is true==00:12:16,040== ==00:12:16,040==for many people this past year. Whenever I've done the stuck==00:12:20,750== ==00:12:20,750==dance, I've always played with the feeling of like, the==00:12:25,220== ==00:12:25,520==bringing one into oneself, and then sort of pushing out these==00:12:29,540== ==00:12:29,540==actions of the personal embrace or like the stretching out, a==00:12:32,480== ==00:12:32,510==kind of, these fluidity, these motions that I feel lost as part==00:12:38,780== ==00:12:38,780==of the pandemic, everyone's in chairs, or sitting on their==00:12:41,720== ==00:12:41,720==laptops in bed, or like these sorts of things, so even these==00:12:44,660== ==00:12:44,660==motions of going through and flexing in each direction as==00:12:49,040== ==00:12:49,040==part of the stuck dance is a really liberating thing.==00:12:51,320==
==00:12:55,340==Cassie Thornton: I have a question that I've been wanting==00:12:58,590== ==00:12:58,672==to ask you, ever since I met you, actually. What is your==00:13:03,223== ==00:13:03,304==ideal social space? Like, because you have a huge life==00:13:07,693== ==00:13:07,774==online, and it's filled with complexity and play and rigor.==00:13:12,569== ==00:13:12,651==And then I hear from friends who've hung out with you that==00:13:17,364== ==00:13:17,446==you're incredibly fun to hang out with in the world, eating==00:13:22,241== ==00:13:22,322==pizza, playing with animals. Like, what your ideal social==00:13:26,955== ==00:13:27,036==life will be, and like how you'll go towards that.==00:13:31,100==
==00:13:31,000==Cade Diehm: I think dynamism is what's missing. I think that's==00:13:34,487== ==00:13:34,557==what draws me into why I'm so allergic to the flattening that==00:13:38,812== ==00:13:38,882==we've just talked about. I think the playfulness that you've==00:13:43,067== ==00:13:43,137==described, which is also, thank you, it's, uh, kind of terrible==00:13:47,531== ==00:13:47,601==with compliments, sorry. But I really enjoy spending just time==00:13:51,926== ==00:13:51,995==and dynamic spaces. Always changing; always moving. Not==00:13:55,832== ==00:13:55,902==necessarily always consuming always, like easily bored or==00:13:59,878== ==00:13:59,947==anything like that. But rather, it's the experimentation and==00:14:04,133== ==00:14:04,202==the, the connectivity with others I find really joyful. I==00:14:08,178== ==00:14:08,248==see myself a little bit more trying to mix the two, right,==00:14:12,294== ==00:14:12,364==spending more time traveling around and also bringing people==00:14:16,549== ==00:14:16,619==into these spaces, in a sense, trying to do both. Portability,==00:14:20,943== ==00:14:21,013==I think is a really important thing right now. Even just those==00:14:25,338== ==00:14:25,408==it's three questions, and I already feel like there's a like==00:14:29,593== ==00:14:29,663==a huge weight has been lifted up from me. This is, this is really==00:14:34,197== ==00:14:34,266==great. I really appreciate taking the moment with me to, to==00:14:38,382== ==00:14:38,452==demonstrate this. I feel like it's far more interesting to do==00:14:42,707== ==00:14:42,776==it and try to just run a video or something like that. So I==00:14:46,892== ==00:14:46,962==really appreciate that. I would like to drop out of this a==00:14:51,007== ==00:14:51,077==little bit, and I'd like to start by asking I think what's==00:14:55,123== ==00:14:55,193==probably on a lot of viewers minds now. Like, what did we==00:14:59,169== ==00:14:59,238==actually just do then? What is this?==00:15:01,750==
==00:15:01,000==Cassie Thornton: This was like a very short snippet of like an an==00:15:04,214== ==00:15:04,281==online, peer to peer social protocol called the Hologram.==00:15:08,098== ==00:15:08,165==Actually, it comes from crisis, it's like, it's like a project==00:15:12,317== ==00:15:12,384==born out of crisis. So I am an anti debt activist. I've spent==00:15:16,469== ==00:15:16,536==so many years looking at the horrible reality that's produced==00:15:20,621== ==00:15:20,688==by an indebted society or a society that is built around==00:15:24,438== ==00:15:24,505==debt. Those structures of debt make reality so boring. It means==00:15:28,724== ==00:15:28,791==that our imaginations are so plugged into, like the bills we==00:15:32,809== ==00:15:32,876==have to pay or the things we feel we owe, and all the guilt==00:15:36,827== ==00:15:36,894==and shame around that. And so the Hologram project is based on==00:15:41,046== ==00:15:41,113==work that was done in Greece, during a financial crisis, that==00:15:45,198== ==00:15:45,265==was also a migrant crisis. The Hologram comes out of an idea==00:15:49,283== ==00:15:49,350==that like in crisis, we can really still play with how we==00:15:53,167== ==00:15:53,234==use our labor, how we distribute care. And a lot is possible,==00:15:57,319== ==00:15:57,386==using the skills we already have, the skills and==00:16:00,601== ==00:16:00,668==relationships we already have. I've taken something which was==00:16:04,753== ==00:16:04,820==really conceptual over the last few years, which I would have==00:16:08,905== ==00:16:08,972==described as para-fictional. And we've made it into like a==00:16:12,856== ==00:16:12,923==really, really real set of practices that you can do==00:16:16,405== ==00:16:16,472==online. And...==00:16:17,410==
==00:16:18,419==Shawn Chua: I think to me, it's, it's a kind of, the way that==00:16:21,955== ==00:16:22,027==I've experienced it, it felt like a different dimension. But==00:16:26,357== ==00:16:26,429==I find it being described as a kind of social technology that==00:16:30,831== ==00:16:30,903==helps to offer a space for a kind of structured experience.==00:16:35,161== ==00:16:35,233==And it gave me the tools to distribute the labor of support==00:16:39,490== ==00:16:39,563==and care that's given to somebody, right? Because I think==00:16:43,676== ==00:16:43,748==oftentimes, with with care work, we often think about very dyadic==00:16:48,439== ==00:16:48,511==structures, where it's just one person who is the person who is==00:16:53,057== ==00:16:53,129==taking care of us. But I think with, with Hologram, I had the==00:16:57,531== ==00:16:57,604==opportunity to begin experimenting with, you know,==00:17:01,212== ==00:17:01,284==what happens if the people who were supporting me were also==00:17:05,542== ==00:17:05,614==themselves being supported, right, that kind of Triangle==00:17:09,655== ==00:17:09,727==structure allows for a space that breaks beyond this two==00:17:13,768== ==00:17:13,841==person dyad and opens that space up in quite a, an important way.==00:17:18,531== ==00:17:18,603==I feel.==00:17:19,109==
==00:17:19,000==Lauren Klein: I think the thing that feels really strong about==00:17:22,308== ==00:17:22,377==it, you know, the question that I know that different cohorts==00:17:26,582== ==00:17:26,650==had different kinds of questions as the entry into the Hologram,==00:17:31,062== ==00:17:31,131==and the question that I received was, like, how do you ask for==00:17:35,404== ==00:17:35,473==care? What makes it so hard to ask for care? That feels really,==00:17:39,816== ==00:17:39,884==really important. And as Shawn was saying, it is this kind of==00:17:44,089== ==00:17:44,158==like distributed sense of not, it not being too weighty,==00:17:48,018== ==00:17:48,087==weighty or heavy, but also just this idea of perspective. And I==00:17:52,429== ==00:17:52,498==think there's just like, way of visualizing the Hologram that's==00:17:56,841== ==00:17:56,910==like, it's the perspective of, of three people, so you get to==00:18:01,114== ==00:18:01,183==see yourself and kind of work on whatever you're working on==00:18:05,250== ==00:18:05,319==within yourself and your own, your own shape and sphere from==00:18:09,454== ==00:18:09,523==these different perspectives. And also, knowing that those==00:18:13,521== ==00:18:13,590==perspectives are being informed by a whole network of==00:18:17,243== ==00:18:17,312==perspectives as well.==00:18:18,760==
==00:18:19,530==Shawn Chua: The way that it starts is that you know, you you==00:18:22,080== ==00:18:22,080==approach, um, three people to be your Triangle, and you kind of==00:18:27,150== ==00:18:27,150==enter this Triangle and say, as the Hologram, and as the==00:18:31,980== ==00:18:31,980==Hologram, you are an expert. You, you're an expert in your==00:18:35,970== ==00:18:35,970==own health and how you wish to be cared for. Right? And your==00:18:39,480== ==00:18:39,480==Triangle would be, they could be people and your friends network,==00:18:43,140== ==00:18:43,140==they could be strangers, they could be anybody, and, and I==00:18:47,730== ==00:18:47,730==guess what you seen earlier. Each of those people would be==00:18:51,390== ==00:18:51,390==asking questions, someone will be asking about your, your==00:18:54,690== ==00:18:54,720==psychological health, someone will be taking care of your==00:18:56,820== ==00:18:56,820==social health, and someone will be taking care of your physical==00:18:58,860== ==00:18:58,860==health. But I think what's most interesting about this structure==00:19:02,220== ==00:19:02,220==so so that at the end of this experience, it doesn't quite==00:19:06,810== ==00:19:06,810==stop there. But the idea is that this model tessellates, right?==00:19:10,650== ==00:19:10,650==So what that means is that each of your Triangles, which will==00:19:13,680== ==00:19:13,680==then be supported by their own Triangle, as well. So that that==00:19:18,870== ==00:19:18,930==that viral network that Cassie spoke of earlier, I think is one==00:19:22,110== ==00:19:22,110==of the, I think it's very important dimension of this==00:19:25,470== ==00:19:25,470==project, or this infrastructure that we are kind of developing.==00:19:28,620==
==00:19:30,180==Cade Diehm: So it seems very simple, right? But it's actually==00:19:32,460== ==00:19:32,460==quite an interesting, decentralized model. And what's==00:19:35,970== ==00:19:35,970==the feedback that you've seen from that?==00:19:37,230==
==00:19:37,000==Lauren Klein: I think that, I think it's, I mean, it's==00:19:40,930== ==00:19:40,930==definitely ever-evolving. And I think for different people, the==00:19:44,260== ==00:19:44,290==outcomes would be different, but I can say like, now this this is==00:19:49,030== ==00:19:49,180==based on uh uh, as I said, it changes a lot, but I think==00:19:52,930== ==00:19:52,930==there's a sense of like rest because there is an actual==00:19:57,670== ==00:19:57,670==structure. So I know that some people, you know, we have a==00:20:01,900== ==00:20:01,900==community of practice and then some. So this is just like we==00:20:04,960== ==00:20:04,960==have a meeting and people who are interested in the Hologram==00:20:08,230== ==00:20:08,230==or who are practicing the Hologram or contributing in any==00:20:10,630== ==00:20:10,630==way can just talk about their experience of the Hologram. And==00:20:15,520== ==00:20:15,550==I know that for some people, there's nervousness about==00:20:20,050== ==00:20:20,050==participating, like, "Oh, can I be what needs to be? Right? Can==00:20:24,820== ==00:20:24,820==I be the can I be that this person needs help from. "==00:20:29,410==
==00:20:28,980==Cade Diehm: It's a lot of responsibility.==00:20:29,670==
==00:20:29,460==Cassie Thornton: The feedback is super interesting, and how it's==00:20:32,459== ==00:20:32,522==changed over time. Because before the pandemic, that the==00:20:36,096== ==00:20:36,159==general answer was that, like, this is an amazing idea that==00:20:39,924== ==00:20:39,988==will never work, and I have no time for it. And then when we==00:20:43,816== ==00:20:43,880==began, during the pandemic, at the very beginning, there was a==00:20:47,836== ==00:20:47,900==lot of feedback, which was like, "This is amazing, I really want==00:20:51,984== ==00:20:52,048==to try it, but I'm so afraid or like, I don't actually, I don't==00:20:56,068== ==00:20:56,132==believe that it's possible to do this with people who I know==00:20:59,960== ==00:21:00,024==like, I can never ask people I know for their support, because==00:21:03,980== ==00:21:04,044==they're too, I don't know, they're too exhausted, they're==00:21:07,681== ==00:21:07,745==too spent. They're too sick. I can't do it." And then there's==00:21:11,637== ==00:21:11,701==like a layer, which is like, "I can't do this, because I can't==00:21:15,657== ==00:21:15,721==receive something without reciprocating something of equal==00:21:19,422== ==00:21:19,486==value." So the Hologram has a different form of reciprocation,==00:21:23,442== ==00:21:23,506==as as Shawn was explaining, and so it's like, "No, I can't do it==00:21:27,589== ==00:21:27,653==without an equal exchange." And over time, like those, that==00:21:31,418== ==00:21:31,482==feedback has worn away, it's gotten easier and easier for,==00:21:35,183== ==00:21:35,246==not for everybody, but for many people, to actually like, get==00:21:39,139== ==00:21:39,203==through those barriers and try it. Though, it's still it's==00:21:42,903== ==00:21:42,967==still challenging. And I think many people it's like, it's==00:21:46,668== ==00:21:46,732==like, there's a lot of barriers to beginning because of some of==00:21:50,752== ==00:21:50,816==those, those things in the assumptions that are underlying them.==00:21:54,900==
==00:21:54,000==Cade Diehm: The structure, the structure of the Hologram really==00:21:57,039== ==00:21:57,098==gives it that kind of permission, right? Because it==00:22:00,137== ==00:22:00,197==allows explore what they need to explore that then having the,==00:22:03,891== ==00:22:03,951==there's a structure there that can then allow those people to==00:22:07,586== ==00:22:07,645==reach out in the same way or not, is a really powerful tool.==00:22:11,221== ==00:22:11,280==I'm interested, and maybe this is a reflection of, from each of==00:22:15,034== ==00:22:15,094==you, like that moment where it came into this space of like the==00:22:18,848== ==00:22:18,908==clashing of technologies, situation, and, and physicality==00:22:22,304== ==00:22:22,364==of people, and what that meant for you. It's something I think==00:22:26,058== ==00:22:26,118==that's core to the Hologram's struggles and it's successes,==00:22:29,634== ==00:22:29,693==right? So I'd be keen to hear about that from each of you.==00:22:33,150==
==00:22:34,170==Cassie Thornton: When you invited us and kind of described==00:22:36,948== ==00:22:37,015==your orientation to the para-real, it was a big relief==00:22:40,674== ==00:22:40,742==to me because I had been from the beginning of the project==00:22:44,672== ==00:22:44,740==struggling with two different ideas and sets of languages. So,==00:22:48,941== ==00:22:49,008==first, I explained the Hologram as a mytho-real project, but==00:22:53,074== ==00:22:53,142==that was coming from a place where there was like, there, it==00:22:57,207== ==00:22:57,275==was more likely to get people to kind of like perform it than to==00:23:01,611== ==00:23:01,679==actually use it. And then I went more towards like, like thinking==00:23:06,083== ==00:23:06,151==about as parafiction and parafiction being like, my==00:23:09,607== ==00:23:09,675==favorite example of parafiction is like if you, well, Occupy==00:23:13,740== ==00:23:13,808==Wall Street, you know, the park was, had 20 people in Zuccotti==00:23:18,009== ==00:23:18,077==Park, somebody makes an image where there's 400 people in==00:23:21,939== ==00:23:22,006==Zuccotti Park, puts that on the internet, and now 400 people==00:23:26,072== ==00:23:26,140==come because as humans, like, we follow what we believe is real==00:23:30,408== ==00:23:30,476==and material, and we follow other humans. And so with the==00:23:34,338== ==00:23:34,406==Hologram for so long, it was a beautiful lie. I was like, "yes,==00:23:38,675== ==00:23:38,743==it's a huge network of people that are practicing," with the==00:23:42,808== ==00:23:42,876==idea that eventually that will become something that was true.==00:23:47,077== ==00:23:47,145==And then I think by the time you approached us with the idea of==00:23:51,413== ==00:23:51,481==para-real, we had actually already produced a world. And it==00:23:55,479== ==00:23:55,547==was real. And it was parallel, like, like what Shawn had said==00:23:59,680== ==00:23:59,748==before, it's like, we do actually, when we, when we do==00:24:03,406== ==00:24:03,474==this project, I don't even want to call it work. When we do the==00:24:07,743== ==00:24:07,811==project, we are participating in the kind of parallel reality==00:24:11,944== ==00:24:12,012==that has slightly skewed rules, a softness, a relaxation, the==00:24:16,145== ==00:24:16,213==way that Lauren described it, I think, because there's a very==00:24:20,346== ==00:24:20,414==formal structure to lean into, because we all sort of like have==00:24:24,682== ==00:24:24,750==been trusting this structure for a while, and there's now like==00:24:28,951== ==00:24:29,019==many people practicing it, who all know each other who also==00:24:33,017== ==00:24:33,084==work on the project.==00:24:34,440==
==00:24:34,000==Shawn Chua: I mean, this is, this was a, it's a fascinating==00:24:37,047== ==00:24:37,112==question, right? Because, as I mentioned, my first encounter==00:24:41,002== ==00:24:41,067==with the Hologram happened at 4am in Singapore. It was quite==00:24:44,957== ==00:24:45,022==fascinating because I found myself, you know, every weekend==00:24:48,848== ==00:24:48,912==this ritual from 1am to 4am. Being beautifully intimate and==00:24:52,738== ==00:24:52,803==profoundly connected with a group of people who, a year on,==00:24:56,628== ==00:24:56,693==I realize it's so uncanny that even though, we are so, we know==00:25:00,713== ==00:25:00,778==each other so profoundly, I can't just like meet them for==00:25:04,474== ==00:25:04,539==coffee or drink, or give them a hug. And that's something that==00:25:08,559== ==00:25:08,623==I'm still in the process of trying to negotiate. One, one==00:25:12,384== ==00:25:12,449==thing that I didn't remember was, after each of these zoom==00:25:16,210== ==00:25:16,274==calls, right, there was almost like an emotional crash that==00:25:20,100== ==00:25:20,165==happens, after these three very intense hours being very==00:25:23,796== ==00:25:23,860==connected in all these ways over zoom, that moment, when you turn==00:25:28,075== ==00:25:28,140==off the zoom, and you are on your own in the room, wherever==00:25:31,965== ==00:25:32,030==you are in the world, and that that disenchantment was a, it==00:25:35,920== ==00:25:35,985==was a very marked one, right? How does that version of myself==00:25:39,940== ==00:25:40,005==that exists in that zoom session, in that Hologram world,==00:25:43,701== ==00:25:43,766==how do I reconcile that version of myself in the current reality==00:25:47,916== ==00:25:47,980==that I'm existing in? I think that it becomes a much longer process.==00:25:52,390==
==00:25:53,620==Cade Diehm: There's a, there's a school of thought that suggests==00:25:55,600== ==00:25:55,600==that communities are formed by you build a tool, and then a==00:26:00,190== ==00:26:00,190==person comes for the tool and they stay for the community. The==00:26:03,520== ==00:26:03,520==Hologram itself is a space where you come for the community, and==00:26:07,210== ==00:26:07,210==then you stay for the tool. What is it like to build this kind of==00:26:10,570== ==00:26:10,570==community? Which really doesn't have a set of tools associated==00:26:14,140== ==00:26:14,140==like software tools or infrastructure tools associated==00:26:16,870== ==00:26:16,870==with it, it's kind of an agnostic from that.==00:26:18,790==
==00:26:18,870==Cassie Thornton: We ended up with a set of really structured==00:26:23,970== ==00:26:23,970==like, practices and ideas, and a group of people that really==00:26:28,290== ==00:26:28,320==understand them, because I think we learned, we learned together==00:26:32,880== ==00:26:32,910==as we worked together. And so the technological tools were==00:26:38,190== ==00:26:38,190==secondary to like the sort of social system and social network==00:26:41,850== ==00:26:41,850==that we produced. The challenge of the moment is seeing like,==00:26:46,230== ==00:26:47,070==how we can hold all of those things, as we move platforms and==00:26:52,860== ==00:26:52,860==become a bit, a bit more specific or a bit more==00:26:56,280== ==00:26:56,280==deliberate about the technology that we use? How do we kind of==00:26:59,910== ==00:26:59,910==like, like, bring everybody from one dimension of begged,==00:27:03,720== ==00:27:03,720==borrowed and stolen technology to one that's actually like, a==00:27:07,890== ==00:27:07,890==safe, carefully constructed space that's made for the work==00:27:12,660== ==00:27:12,660==that we want to do? All of the the social technology and the==00:27:15,990== ==00:27:15,990==actual social network that has come together around it, I don't==00:27:21,960== ==00:27:21,960==think it matters so much what technology we use. I mean, I==00:27:26,520== ==00:27:26,520==think there's things that we're all interested in concerned==00:27:29,220== ==00:27:29,220==about, like around surveillance and not wanting to participate==00:27:32,610== ==00:27:32,640==in like a top, like toxic top down corporate surveillance. And==00:27:38,910== ==00:27:38,940==also, I think, like what we've produced can exist in many, many==00:27:44,130== ==00:27:44,130==different situations that we will, all the people that use,==00:27:47,100== ==00:27:47,100==it will practice it wherever we go. So that can be online or==00:27:50,160== ==00:27:50,160==offline, and we'll have to constantly build or find new==00:27:53,790== ==00:27:53,790==tools as we grow and change. But, it's never I don't think it==00:27:58,350== ==00:27:58,350==will ever be dependent on a specific technology.==00:28:01,080==
==00:28:01,410==Shawn Chua: Oh, sure. I just wanted to add on to that point,==00:28:03,930== ==00:28:03,930==because I think when when Cassie's talking about the kind==00:28:06,990== ==00:28:06,990==of social infrastructure, I think this is not just a kind of==00:28:10,170== ==00:28:11,250==rhetorical thing, but it's actually a very real==00:28:15,000== ==00:28:15,030==infrastructure, right? I remember once, right, we==00:28:19,170== ==00:28:19,200==basically did the Hologram over Zencastr, for example. So it was==00:28:23,700== ==00:28:23,700==all purely audio, because we realize we're sick of that kind==00:28:28,200== ==00:28:28,200==of visual exhaustion of having to stare at the screen., and==00:28:32,250== ==00:28:32,250==because, so because that social infrastructure is so clear,==00:28:35,280== ==00:28:35,280==because that's that, for me is the technology of the Hologram,==00:28:38,460== ==00:28:39,450==whatever platforms it, it's contained within it simply, you==00:28:44,490== ==00:28:44,490==know, the different avatars in which the Hologram is taking==00:28:47,040== ==00:28:47,190==shape as.==00:28:48,090==
==00:28:48,270==Lauren Klein: Yeah, and I feel like the technology can be like==00:28:51,630== ==00:28:51,720==opening more spaces for different kinds, different==00:28:54,450== ==00:28:54,450==expressions of the Hologram within the community.==00:28:57,510==
==00:28:57,990==Cade Diehm: It seems as though there's a component of a to==00:28:59,820== ==00:28:59,820==where the drive for this kind of decentralized care and the need==00:29:03,630== ==00:29:03,630==for it has helped. It does seem like there's a willingness there==00:29:06,720== ==00:29:06,720==as well, like a almost like a fearlessness. I mean, I can say==00:29:10,470== ==00:29:10,470==from what I've seen, there's a willingness to try things with==00:29:15,000== ==00:29:15,030==technologies that people otherwise would be very fearful==00:29:17,880== ==00:29:17,880==of.==00:29:18,240==
==00:29:19,290==Cassie Thornton: Hmmmm, I mean, we have many, I mean, I would==00:29:21,990== ==00:29:21,990==say, we have many people that have taken the course who are==00:29:26,130== ==00:29:26,370==grandmother age and who like never have really zoomed outside==00:29:33,870== ==00:29:33,870==of like to see their family or whatever, so there's a ton of==00:29:36,960== ==00:29:36,960==willingness. I think that because the feeling, the feeling==00:29:40,230== ==00:29:40,230==produced when we do practice, the Hologram is so good, like==00:29:44,940== ==00:29:44,940==it's actually worth it to them to do it, it's gonna it's gonna==00:29:48,420== ==00:29:48,420==leave some people out and we need to just, you know, work==00:29:50,640== ==00:29:50,640==extra hard to make sure that it remain super accessible and that==00:29:54,870== ==00:29:54,870==we can be maybe the bridge that helps people try new stuff.==00:29:58,140==
==00:29:58,890==Cade Diehm: And there's not many projects like this, right? Like==00:30:00,930== ==00:30:00,930==a fully decentralized space of care, that transcends the==00:30:07,860== ==00:30:07,860==tooling of which it's dependent upon? Where does it go from==00:30:12,540== ==00:30:12,540==here?==00:30:12,780==
==00:30:12,810==Lauren Klein: I mean, I will just say like, I have so many==00:30:17,310== ==00:30:17,340==visions of what it could be, there could be like an urgent==00:30:21,240== ==00:30:21,240==care Hologram. So there's a network of people that you could==00:30:24,330== ==00:30:24,330==just access and ask for a Triangle experience, and then==00:30:27,720== ==00:30:27,720==like do that. There could be a way to create spaces where you==00:30:34,980== ==00:30:35,010==can access people who have specific knowledge. I don't==00:30:37,950== ==00:30:37,950==know. These are just fantasies, like little things that come out==00:30:40,890== ==00:30:40,890==of, curiosities that come up. I mean, there's so much to say, I==00:30:46,170== ==00:30:46,170==will, I won't take long.==00:30:47,670==
==00:30:47,700==Shawn Chua: I think for myself, it's mutation. I think we talked==00:30:51,630== ==00:30:51,630==about how, you know, the Hologram is kind of viral==00:30:53,760== ==00:30:53,760==network and viruses, the mutate, right, because they, they are so==00:30:57,870== ==00:30:58,020==volatile. And I think because this this network is it's==00:31:01,320== ==00:31:01,350==peer-to-peer, it's so decentralized, it affords a lot==00:31:04,980== ==00:31:04,980==of different kinds of mutations to happen. You know, what does==00:31:07,800== ==00:31:07,800==it, what kind of shapes does it need to take? Yeah, or different==00:31:10,590== ==00:31:10,590==kinds of frames, right, that these are scaffolds, so that the==00:31:13,290== ==00:31:13,290==Hologram could kind of latch on and find different shapes in its==00:31:16,500== ==00:31:16,500==manifestation. So yeah, that kind of proliferation, viral==00:31:19,950== ==00:31:19,950==proliferation, and mutation is where I hope it goes.==00:31:22,350==
==00:31:23,050==Cassie Thornton: One really specific, like practical use==00:31:26,380== ==00:31:26,380==that I would love to see would be for decarceration. Like I==00:31:30,490== ==00:31:30,490==would love if the Hologram could pair with, you know, an==00:31:34,120== ==00:31:34,120==organization like critical resistance or something that==00:31:36,100== ==00:31:36,100==does abolitionists work. And like, actually, I think helps==00:31:40,270== ==00:31:40,300==anyone that's stuck in a carceral system, leave. All of==00:31:44,320== ==00:31:44,320==the situations I've been in have been very flawed, because they==00:31:47,290== ==00:31:47,290==rely on individual support, and I've never been able to give the==00:31:52,030== ==00:31:52,030==support I would like to give that could sustain somebody==00:31:54,160== ==00:31:54,160==through a real life transition, like decarceration. And I mean,==00:31:57,010== ==00:31:57,040==I'm interested in all kinds of decarceration, like, so from==00:32:00,580== ==00:32:00,580==psychological institutions, to, you know, all kinds of things.==00:32:04,150== ==00:32:04,150==But, so I think, like, having it be known as a tool for hardcore==00:32:09,640== ==00:32:09,640==transformation. And I think the thing about it that I think is==00:32:12,910== ==00:32:12,910==so important is that, like, when somebody's making a big==00:32:15,880== ==00:32:15,880==transformation, and you want to support them, three people==00:32:19,810== ==00:32:19,810==supporting one person is much more likely to work. You also==00:32:23,890== ==00:32:23,890==then as a supporter, have support. Because the thing that==00:32:28,090== ==00:32:28,090==you need to hold in supporting someone's transition is like,==00:32:32,140== ==00:32:32,320==it's a lot. And I think recognizing the importance of==00:32:38,230== ==00:32:38,230==supporting supporters is like, so relevant to this type of==00:32:41,560== ==00:32:41,590==thing, transformational work. And generally, I just think if==00:32:44,440== ==00:32:44,440==like, you know, if it I just think we need to develop tools==00:32:48,490== ==00:32:48,490==that can become really, really easy to access for lots of==00:32:52,390== ==00:32:52,390==different types of people, so they can take it, and do what==00:32:54,700== ==00:32:54,700==Sean saying, and mutate it and make it their own. Like it's==00:32:57,280== ==00:32:57,280==really, it's an anarchist project that's completely==00:33:00,490== ==00:33:00,490==drowned in structure so that in this moment where everything is==00:33:03,550== ==00:33:03,550==so fluid and breaking down and soft, we can have a little shape==00:33:08,230== ==00:33:09,430==to move with. But, you know, I hope so much that we can just==00:33:12,970== ==00:33:13,120==spread that structure around and then see what other people do==00:33:17,410== ==00:33:17,410==with it in a really vast way.==00:33:20,470==
==00:33:20,710==Cade Diehm: Shawn, Lauren, and Cassie, this is a project with a==00:33:24,340== ==00:33:24,340==core community of 60 and an extended community of hundreds==00:33:28,150== ==00:33:28,360==existing across the world for decentralized care in a time of==00:33:32,620== ==00:33:32,650==absolute crisis. The website for it is thehologram.xyz. Thank you==00:33:37,840== ==00:33:37,840==very much. Yeah, this is a really important project.==00:33:40,570==
==00:33:41,440==Lauren Klein: Thank you. This was fun.==00:33:42,460== ==00:33:42,490==I feel excited.==00:33:43,360==
==00:33:45,160==Cade Diehm: Thanks.==00:33:45,550==
==00:33:46,320==Shawn Chua: Thank you so much==00:33:47,190==